2000 Millenia S system install - Help Needed.

[millifan69]

HI Folks. I've been a guest on here for a while but finally found a question that I couldn't locate via the usual search methods.

I am installing the following system in my Millenia S:
(currently running the factory Bose system with a broken CD Player)

Head Unit: Eclipse 55090 (In dash DVD, 8volt Pre Outs, Copper Chassis)

Front Speakers: Eclipse 8052 (5 1/4" Compnents)
Installing custom MDF Plate - removing fatory 4" speaker and enclosure

Rear Speakers: Eclipse 6900 (6x9" Point Source)
Direct replacement

Subwoofer: Alpine SWR-1022D (Type-R Dual 2Ohm)
Running at 4Ohm load

Amplifiers:
2 - Eclipse EA2000 2 Channel amps for front and rear speakers each running 50wattsx2 at 4ohms
1 - Eclipse 33230 2 Channel sub bridged to 450watts RMS at 4ohms

Additional Items:
Eclipse 9002/9902 Commander unit with GPS
Clarion Center channel speaker (later install)
Eclipse 39011 DSP 5.1 controller (Potential purchase and install for the future)

All the above being said here are my questions:

First: I am looking to run a single power wire from the battery to the rear trunk where the amps and subs will be located then using a distrabution box to split the power lines. I have two options fisrt would be to run a single 4AWG witre and split into three 8AWG lines, second would be to run a single 0/2AWG line then split into three 4AWG lines. My question is which would be a better option given the amps / power requirements listed above?

Second: should I run new lines to the front speakers or use the factory lines run by bose / mazda?

Third: Do I need to run a cap and if so what size would be recommended? 1 ferid?

Other Info: I am potentially looking to upgrade the amps to two Eclipse 33230's to run the front and rear speakers: 130wattsx2 at 4ohms and one eclipse 34230 or 7122 amp to run the sub which may be upgraded to a more powerful 10" eclipse titanium unit. Current sub wattage is 500watts RMS 1500watts max. The eclipse would have an RMS of 750watts and be a dual 4OHM unit. I realize with the potential upgrade I would definatly need to go with a 0AWG wire. But everything above is for now speculation.

Would I really get much improvement in sound / volume by upgrading the sub / amps? Or would it be a waste of money? I am more interested in SQ than overall volume.

Has anybody used any of the pieces listed above and what were your thoughts / experiences?

LASTLY I do have the following Items for sale if anyone is interested:

Eclipse 5506 8v, pre-out only, copper chassis, top of the line unit, original MSRP: $1000.00
Eclipse 55040: 8v, pre-out only, second to the 55090, original MSRP: $649.00
All components from the factory bose system, including amps, speakers, etc. Only fault is the typical cd player issue - ejecting CD's

I'm willing to take offers on any and all parts.

I'm also willing to sell my EA2000's (Both Brand New) for the right price so I can fund the upgrade to the larger amps

[millyowner]

1. 6 gauge would probably be optimal for the current draw. 4 gauge would be mild overkill. Split them off at the distribution block with 8 gauge or lower. The cable runs are so short at that point that it almost doesn't matter what gauge you use after the block.

2. If you're powering the door speakers with the amps and you're not using an active high-pass filter on them, I'd rewire them.

3. In technical terms, a cap is never needed so long as your wiring is sized properly.

0 gauge won't help unless your pulling enough current for over 2,000 watts of RMS output total for the whole system. 4 gauge will easily carry 1,000 watts of continuous RMS output assuming class D amps of average efficiency.

In all honesty, you're grossly overpowered in all the wrong areas to have a true SQ system.

[millifan69]

In all honesty, you're grossly overpowered in all the wrong areas to have a true SQ system.[/b]

Not sure I understand the last part - What would you change?

The reason I am looking into the other amps is that although they are older IMHO they are built with better quality materials.

Yes the two EA2000 amps have Hi Pass filters bulit into them - although I'd still like to run new wiring I'm just not sure if it's worth the effort - If it would make a big difference in sq.

[millyowner]

Over sizing all the wiring in the system might sound like a good idea, but it usually isn't the case. High frequencies are said to be more articulate on higher gauge wire, which is why a pair of $10,000 home stereo loudspeakers are usually capable of bi-wiring. Also, the power needed to drive frequencies above 150hz is 2% of what is needed to drive frequencies below 150hz at the same volume, so with a HPF enabled, speakers will play at very high volume but use as little as 20 watts of power continuously, which the stock wiring is perfectly capable of. There won’t be any discernable difference in the way the speakers sound by rewiring them. It's the low frequencies that use an amplifier’s power.

Another reason is that the electricity going from the amplifier to the speakers is AC current and runs at a higher voltage as the wattage to them (or volume) increases. Higher voltage means the wiring to the speakers can be of high gauge and still carry many watts of power. It’s the same principle under which a 15’ 18 gauge 120 volt household extension cord can easily carry 1600 watts, but you need 2 gauge wiring to carry an amp drawing the same wattage at the meager 12 volts used in car audio.

As far as a true “Sound Quality” system in the car environment, with speakers mounted into pressed sheet metal, a noise overhead that’s orders of magnitude above the threshold of human hearing, and a small resonant cavity (the car's interior) producing resonant peaks of more than 12db all over the listenable frequency range; most of the work involved in the typical SQ system is mostly compensating for frequency aberrations and making the audible range as naturally flat sounding as possible. Doing this doesn’t require high output amplifiers, but lots of time and effort in tuning.

The SQ crowd typically spends most of their resources on multiple, carefully placed custom drivers with enclosure solutions for each, custom high-order passive crossover networks and active equalization all while trying to minimize frequency cancellation and phasing errors. Amplifiers are scrutinized for power supply quality, dynamic range, and ability to maintain consistent output regardless of output impedance rather than just the max RMS output or perhaps THD and nothing more.

[millifan69]

Ok so in simplistic terms the 4AWG wire solution will be plenty, with no need for a cap. The system should hopefully sound significantly better than stock but not to a true audiophile level, which is fine because I don't intend to put more than a couple hundred dollars into an audio system that is being installed into an $8000.00 vehicle.

If money was no object a Mcintosh / Alpine F1 or Nakamichi head unit with Mcintosh / older Adcom or Tube Driver Amps and Focal Utopia Speakers would be my choice but then reality sets in.

Thanks for all your help.

[Saint_]

Do the amps always use 12V, or there is a dc-dc upconverter build-in? If they use 12V how come the output is 450W? (I assume this is a good one with low THD, not 450W at %90TDH).

For me, bose is well above the average stock car audio. However I had to go through a lot of cd burning cycles to adjust the EQ to my interest at first. Backseat still suffers from the sub but who cares

If only it doesnt skip CDRW..

Amplifiers:
2 - Eclipse EA2000 2 Channel amps for front and rear speakers each running 50wattsx2 at 4ohms
1 - Eclipse 33230 2 Channel sub bridged to 450watts RMS at 4ohms[/b]

[millifan69]

Do the amps always use 12V, or there is a dc-dc upconverter build-in? If they use 12V how come the output is 450W? (I assume this is a good one with low THD, not 450W at %90TDH).

For me, bose is well above the average stock car audio. However I had to go through a lot of cd burning cycles to adjust the EQ to my interest at first. Backseat still suffers from the sub but who cares

If only it doesnt skip CDRW..[/b]

on the 33230 I got the number from Eclipse. None of the documentation showed a bridged 4ohm output. Max output though is 620 Watts at 13.8 volts and 2 Ohms. I thing it's actually 440watts at 4Ohms with 0.1% THD.
The EA2000's actually show an RMS of 60Watts x 2 At 4OHMs with 0.1%THD

[millyowner]

As far as electricity goes, you need high voltage and high amperage to send hundreds of watts down 14 gauge speaker wire. To get an amplifier to operate at 12 volts DC, you need a DC-DC converter along with a substantial voltage and current increase, which is handled by the amplifier's 2nd and 3rd stages respectively. Without these critical pieces, a typical IC amp is limited to ~15 watts per channel at 12 volts. That's why all the "high-powered" head units sold that say 45 watts or 55 watts x 4 will always say 13-15 watts RMS somewhere in the fine print of the owner's manual. Those units can't step up the voltage and current to accommodate more than that.

As far as the cost of an SQ system is concerned, it can be done cheaply with an audio CD that has test tones and an A-weighted dB meter. Map out your car's resonant peaks and dips and try to correct for the worst of them with parametric EQing. Pioneer's higher-end headunits have had nice parametric EQ functions for several years now. The millenia's cabin transfer function occurs at around 85hz, so a ported sub with an F3 of close to 85hz and a 6-8db rolloff per octave would give a relatively flat response curve after EQing the 50hz cabin resonance.

[Saint_]

I am confused. If you have a 12V supply, in order to get 620Wrms power you need :

P=V^2/R, R=0.23ohm-rms!!

since speaker resistane is larger than 0.23ohm and amp efficiency sucks whatever class the output stage is, this is impossible if there is no dc-dc conversion inside..

For 620W @ 2ohm voltage should be 35Vrms at the output and it needs more than 70Vrms, 100Vdc supply somewhere inside. Anybody knows about this issue, Did I miss a point?

on the 33230 I got the number from Eclipse. None of the documentation showed a bridged 4ohm output. Max output though is 620 Watts at 13.8 volts and 2 Ohms. I thing it's actually 440watts at 4Ohms with 0.1% THD.
The EA2000's actually show an RMS of 60Watts x 2 At 4OHMs with 0.1%THD[/b]

[millifan69]

I am confused. If you have a 12V supply, in order to get 620Wrms power you need :

P=V^2/R, R=0.23ohm-rms!!

since speaker resistane is larger than 0.23ohm and amp efficiency sucks whatever class the output stage is, this is impossible if there is no dc-dc conversion inside..

For 620W @ 2ohm voltage should be 35Vrms at the output and it needs more than 70Vrms, 100Vdc supply somewhere inside. Anybody knows about this issue, Did I miss a point?[/b]

You guys are definatly more technically knowledgeable than I am. All I really want is a good sounding CD player that actually works, and a little more range into the lower frequencies.

here's what I could find online about the 33230 amp- why I called Eclipse:

Eclipse 33230 130x2 Channel Amplifier

310W x 2 Channel Max. Power Output at 2 ohms
200W x 2 Channel 0.1% THD at 2 ohms Stereo, 20,000Hz at 13.8V (RMS Continuous Power)
130W x 2 Channel 0.1% THD at 4 ohms Stereo, 20-20,000Hz at 13.8V (RMS Continuous Power)
ChannelFlex Crossover Adjustable Low-Pass Crossover (12dB/octave, 50-200Hz)
Subsonic Filter (10Hz Fix)
Free-Flow Signal Circuit
Double-Sided PCB
High-Current, High-Speed Output Devices
High-Efficiency, High-Energy MOS-FET Power Supply
Audiophile Grade Component Selection
Intelligent 7-Way Discrete Protection Circuitry
Music Reproduction with Low Distortion & Ultra-Low Negative Feedback
Efficient Cooling with Low-Profile Heatsink
Multi-Mode Configuration
Stereo/Mono Switch